Slippery consent issues with boyfriend.

[relight-it.livejournal.com]

I have been turning the contents of this post over and over in my mind for a couple of months, and finally decided to just post it.

Outside of the bedroom, my partner is a perfect gentleman: charming, brilliant, funny, thoughtful, affectionate. We share great chemistry and the same sense of humor, and love each other's company. I am very happy to be with him.

But I do have a concern or else I wouldn't be here. It has to do with consent.

We've been involved for just over a year. He's older than me (27 to my 23; we're both grad students) and much more sexually experienced than I am (I would estimated 20 partners for him over 10 years of being sexually active, and I've had four partners over four years), and for the most part, our sex life has been really great and fun. That's important to point out: honestly almost always great and great fun for both of us. But there have been 7-8 incidents over the past few months where he won't take "no" for an answer. We rely on condoms and the fertility awareness method to avoid pregnancy; when I'm outside my fertile window, we skip the condoms since we've both tested STD-free.

There are always a few days each month on either side of my fertile window where it's probably safe to have unprotected sex but I have a lot of anxiety about pregnancy (and he's fully aware of this) where I insist we use condoms for my peace of mind. On some of these days, when I feel we should use a condom and say so, clearly and firmly if sympathetically, he has laid on top of me and pushed and pushed the head of his penis against my vagina (I'm not wet to receive him, obviously, since I am uncomfortable and don't want to have sex without a condom) and eventually pushed inside, despite my insisting on using a condom, and then he will thrust a few times, up to a minute or two, clearly relishing it, before he relents and puts on a condom. He's much bigger than I am, but I could push him off if I used all of my strength and wasn't worried about hurting him, but I shouldn't have to when I've been clear... additionally, after the fact, I've told him clearly that he put his pleasure over my peace of mind. I don't really remember his responses to these comments, but it was something along the lines of "I care about you and I don't want you to be upset, so talk to me..." Well, I was talking to you, clearly, when these things were unfolding... 

There have been two other kinds of incidents. One is joking about consent during sex, which only happened once but made me uncomfortable at the time (expressed my discomfort) and much more uncomfortable after the fact when I had time to think it over alone and examine it alongside the few murky-consent incidents we'd had. 

And the other has been a few times that I've been sick or under the weather and said that I am not feeling up to sex, and he's pressured me into it, basically not taking "No, I don't feel well and I'm not in the mood" for an answer (continuing to undress me, undressing himself, lying on top of me, and so on from there) so that I would either have to give in or I'd have to make a big scene to fully communicate the seriousness of the situation, and I've given in. He's also kept going (for - edited: what feels like several minutes until orgasming, definitely several deep thrusts and not a hasty wrap-up and pull out, but maybe only a minute or two now that I realize I don't know what several minutes during sex feels like?) the time or two I've gotten injured during sex (vaginal tears or major cervix bumps, both of which REALLY hurt... so in those instances, though he knew I was hurt and wanted to stop as soon as possible, he decided to keep on going and then congratulated me for being a "good sport." Yeah, definitely wanted to kick him out of bed. 

So, I am posting because I don't know how to think about these things and the discomfort they make me feel and how to square these things with how genuinely amazing he is the rest of the time: in every other setting and situation, and almost every sex situation. These incidents comprise a tiny tiny fraction of a percentage of our sexual experiences together, but they needle me. 


Edited to add: In at least a few past relationships, he's definitely been into Dom/Sub stuff (him being, he's said, very dominant), but we haven't dabbled much in that since it's not a turn-on for me, and it's kind of beside the point. What was OK and maybe very mutually agreeable in those relationships doesn't say anything about what flies and doesn't in other sexual relationships. 

Comments

[spiffynamehere.livejournal.com]

...Oh wow. You really, really need to talk to him about this, and lay down some laws. (Not that you haven't already or that they weren't adequate or whatever, because clearly you have and not taking them to heart or even not being an asshole those times is 100% his fault just... I vote for needed again). If he's really good, then he will have to accept it. If not, you might want to honestly point out what he's done and how that is not acceptable. It might shock him into realizing what he's done.

Also, I offer you a kitty hug icon D:?

[rikkitsune.livejournal.com]

:/ I can definitely understand why this is bothering you.

If it were happening to me, I would be telling myself that it DOESN'T MATTER how awesome he is the other 99% of the time. 99% awesomeness does NOT give my boyfriend a free pass to force himself on me when I have been very clear about being unwell, not in the mood or potentially fertile.

I would be having a very serious discussion with my boyfriend and explain to him that if I say no, I MEAN NO. If I say he is to wear a condom, then he damn well better put a condom on. Because if he doesn't, sex will NOT be happening. And if he tries to force the issue after I have made my stipulations clear, then it is sexual assault. As I am legally inclined, I will have copies of the relevant legislation to hand to help me explain this.

Then I will have words with my boyfriend to the effect of: "If you think my consent (or consent in general) is something to be joked about, ignored or circumvented by means of physical or emotional coercion, then we are done here. Have a nice life."

It could be that my boyfriend thinks it's all fun and games. He could not be aware that what he is doing is totally not okay. He may have been with other women who tolerated or even enjoyed this behaviour from him, who knows. Therefore, I will remove all doubt around the issue by being clear and specific about what *I* will and will not accept. From there, his behaviour will determine whether or not we stay together.

[rikkitsune.livejournal.com]

Also, I've just re-read your post and picked up on the bit you posted about your boyfriend choosing to continue PIV despite knowing you are injured.

If this were my boyfriend, I would include in our discussion that he has done numerous things during our time together that strongly suggest he has no regard for my sexual health. I would outline these things in specific detail (ignoring requests to use condoms, forcing sex when I am unwell, failing to stop when he knows I am hurt) and tell him that from now on, I will not tolerate pain or discomfort for the sake of his sexual pleasure. If I get hurt, I will tell him and expect/trust him to stop sex immediately, AS I WOULD DO FOR HIM, should he be injured.

For me, that is completely non-negotiable, no matter how casual or serious the relationship is.

[darkenedminds.livejournal.com]

Many of the things you describe are what I absolutely consider crossing the line. Using his size/power to enter you without protection on a day when you want/need it (up to a minute or two???)? Definitely a problem. Continuing to thrust when sex starts to hurt (for several MINUTES?????i'd toss off my SO of many years if there is any more than an extra two or three slow down thrusts when I tell him to stop)?

He is a graduate student. He presumably has brains in his head and ears that can listen to you. PLEASE assert yourself and assert that these sorts of behavior are NOT ok. Please assert that this is his final warning. If it were me, I might be willing to assume he was just dense and had a misogynistic streak flarup during these slippery moments, but after a stern talk..well, these actions would constitute rape. No means no. Stop means stop right now (not after you've had a few minutes to get your jollies).

Even if these are a tiny tiny fraction of your experiences, they happen(ed) and must stop if you are uncomfortable with it. If he continues, please don't hesitate to end the relationship because its only a "tiny tiny fraction".

[rikkitsune.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Just because these behaviours constitute a tiny, tiny fraction of the overall picture does NOT mean that they are insignificant or unimportant. Please do not let anyone tell you otherwise. You are not overreacting.

[butterflybee260.livejournal.com]

Ohhh boy. Just reading this makes me super uncomfortable, so I can only imagine what you must have felt like!

I think you need to have a very clear talk with him, because what he is doing is NOT okay and could potentially spread other parts of your relationship if not dealt with. He's putting his desires above your comfort, SAFETY, and consent! That is a huge red flag. He may not realize what he's doing, but if he does that is a situation I personally would get out of asap, because it could turn really bad really fast.

Best of luck sweetie!

[heartsasmagnets.livejournal.com]

He's also kept going (for several minutes until orgasming). . .and then congratulated me for being a "good sport." Yeah, definitely wanted to kick him out of bed.

It's your life to live, but reading this just made me sick. I am in an FWB situation - which can be broadly defined as more self-serving than perhaps a traditional relationship - but my partner would NEVER continue on if he knew I was hurt.

This not only makes me feel sick to my stomach but makes me hope that this pattern of disrespect doesn't continue to grow for your sake.

[sweetchild92.livejournal.com]

I must have missed that part on my first read, I just...:(

OP: You deserve better.

[snowpuppies]

First of all, I want to commend you for talking about this - so many women don't, and frankly, it hurts us all.

Secondly, I'd like to say I echo pretty much everyone above in that a very serious discussion needs to be had. If it were me, I'd go a step farther and say that after this discussion, he gets one and exactly one shot to get this right or it's over. I know that it might seem harsh to some, but in my experience (I work as a counselor to a lot of young women who have been in similar situations, so I actually have some basis) these things only get worse.

I get that 99% is great, but when the 1% has to do with disrespect of your boundaries, well, it's about the most important 1% there is. It's not as if that 1% was that he snores or has weird eating habits or something else moderately annoying - that's something you can overlook for the great 99%. Him disrespecting your boundaries is NOT.

Please stand up for yourself. You deserve it. Truly.

[snowpuppies]

Also?

*hugs*

[mariah00.livejournal.com]

I don't know if you've had a discussion with him about this outside of the bedroom, but like others above have said, you need to have this conversation with him now. Do not wait until your next sexual encounter - hopefully he'll be more rational when he's not expecting sex.

[sweetchild92.livejournal.com]

He's already disrespected your boundaries several times, in the face of *explicit* direction otherwise. That is very, very horrifying to me. I'm honestly not sure actions like that will come from a person who will want to change...he chose to continue hurting you. That's not ok. Imo, ditch him asap and don't settle for anyone who doesn't disrespect your basic rights as a sexual partner.

[rockstarbob.livejournal.com]

I understand that you're speaking out of concern for the OP and their well-being, but I'm worried that the way you've phrased part of this advice ("ditch him asap," specifically) kind of crosses the line into substituting your judgment for theirs. There's a fine line between saying "If something like that happened to me, I would ditch that person" and saying "ditch that person," but there is a line, you know? Even if sometimes it feels very grey or hazy.

I think this kind of thing is probably fine to say to friends, but VP is a little different. It's just really important to afford other members the opportunity of choice - especially if you think they might be in an abusive situation. Part of this is remembering to be careful in how you state your opinions and your feelings: generally, "if/when it happened to me, I would/did consider it..." rather than "this is": while it can be helpful to hear people saying "such-and-such a behaviour isn't acceptable", it is frequently much harder to come to any acceptance that "this-and-the-other was abusive." We like to empower each other to classify ourselves, partners, and relationships without having other people do it for us.

Anyway, I know you meant absolutely well. It's just tricky here sometimes. Thanks for understanding. :)

[kansassatin.livejournal.com]

I was in a relationship where my partner would not always respect my wishes, even when explicitly told. This was hard to read and OP from experience, tigers don't change their stripes. I would leave. NOW. Yeah he's great 99% of the time, but his severe lack of respect for your wishes regarding sex trump all that. He has crossed the line many times, he continues to hurt you and disregard you. Leave, now. A partnership is an equal relationship, where respect is prevalent, that's not going on here. Part of me can't help but worry that he is trying to trap you with pregnancy...

[buttcrackderby.livejournal.com]

I am just going to repeat the intent of the above comment.

This. This. This.

I also found myself in a similar situation last year with my ex. It started out like the OP's situation but then escalated into verbal abuse to go on top of it and the constant feeling of "he's trying to trap me into pregnancy." It started with not stopping if the condom fell off and I was saying "STOP," grew into constantly trying to deride my statement of "I'm in too much pain right now" to him when my ribs were broken, and then the verbal abuse of "All you (my nationality) women are overly freaked out about getting pregnant! What's wrong with you?! You're like the crash-scared person riding in an airplane! According to (his nation's) statistics, there's ONLY a 30% chance of you actually getting pregnant so WHY BOTHER with a condom?"

Yes. Real, mind boggling statements. I eventually broke it off with him, he got crazy physically threatening and I was walking home with a wary eye over my shoulder for the following three months.

Sorry, I think I poured in too much but,.... my own experience sucked so badly I can't bear for it to happen to anyone else. Please know that your partner's behavior is not acceptable and that you have a RIGHT to be respected, not 99%, but 100% of the time. Please be careful. *hugs*

[lythandae.livejournal.com]

Excuse my forthcoming language but make a big fuck off scene please.

You've said no on repeated occasions and from what you've said he's either ignored your feeling or emotionally coerced you into giving in displaying alarming disregard for you and rights. Despite how wonderful he is to you 99% of the time in that 1% that he wasn't and isn't, continuing to have sex with you when you were in pain, unwell or not in the mood he has abused your trust in him. My personal feelings on the matter are that when he continued to have sex with you when you were in pain that stepped into assault.

You've made your feeling to him known and I urge you so strongly to enforce that you when you say no it means no in huge flashing neon signs. If he can't accept that then walk out of the bedroom and if need be stay at a friends place for the night as apparently he needs to be hit over the head with a brick to make the point really clear to him.

[spikey-kris.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with her on this. BIG OL' SCENE. make sure he damn well knows that what he is doing is WRONG and that he's finely toeing the line of becoming a rapist. Everything you've said makes it clear that you CLEARLY expressed that he not do what he proceeded to do. That is not okay. Ever. If he needs it to be more clear, make it as damn clear as possible. everything you said he has done is not excusable just because he's a nice guy sometimes.

[word-vomity.livejournal.com]

I was with a guy who was very similar to this for a long time, OP. If I didn't want sex and he did, he'd 'fake wrestle' with me, pinning me, holding my wrists, taking off my clothes despite my protests, etc. until I was in the position of either admitting to myself what was going on and causing a huge scene (something I knew he wouldn't take well) or just going along with it to make it feel more consensual than it was. At the time, I was so blinded by my feelings for him that I never stood up and stooped him like I should have. And he always played it off like a game or something so that I felt like I was overreacting. I REALLY wish I could take that back now.

You're worth so much more than a guy who is treating you like a thing for his pleasure only. Even if it's only sometimes. Please talk to him. It is possible he's that dense. But if he's just that selfish, move on. You deserve better.

[relight-it.livejournal.com]

This is exactly what it's like - thanks for sharing your experience and clear examples - this kind of playful won't-take-no-for-an-answer and the only way to stop it would be to really act out, but that feels like overreacting, and so you go along because you don't want to see how the situation will continue to progress without your consent, and you can kind of negotiate terms if you go along.

trigger warning for the r-word...

[isee23s.livejournal.com]

Please forgive me if this comes off really strong for you. I don't want you to think I'm judging you or anything. But seriously.

Typically, when relationship-related posts/questions on the Internet start with "[they're] so great 99% of the time," you know that the 1% problem is likely to be HUGE. This seems like no exception.

"He's much bigger than I am, but I could push him off if I used all of my strength and wasn't worried about hurting him, but I shouldn't have to when I've been clear..."

No, you really shouldn't have to. Ever ever ever again.

I have to respectfully disagree with the other posters who suggest that a discussion is needed, or that you ought to make a scene. You shouldn't have to make a scene, and honestly? It seems like if he hasn't responded to your reasoned approach so far, he is unreasonable.

Full disclosure: My first sexual experience was something similar to what you've described here, me having laid down boundaries and my boyfriend ignoring them. I too felt like I wasn't entitled to just shove him off of me, and so I didn't. And you know what? 10 years later, I found myself in counseling... rape counseling... because of this violation.

This same boy went on to date a friend of mine (this was in high school), and she wasn't on BC. He surreptitiously removed/sabotaged the condom right before ejaculation, saying he wanted her to have his babies. Seriously. Fucked. Up. And he doesn't sound that different than your guy when it comes to this... (For the record, this high school guy was super-charming, sweet, attractive, charismatic. In retrospect, I think that's how he got away with this stuff, it was a serious part of the pattern.)

I'm not going to make you use the r-word if it doesn't suit you, but think about it. Sex - consent = rape, by most standards I know. And it's not the word that's important, I just want you to consider this: it doesn't matter if he's your boyfriend, he violated you.

You should make your own decision about this, but in my book it in unforgivable. I learned from that first experience that this is now how love works, this is not even how friendship or friendly acquaintanceship works. This is just not how things ought to be. Ever.

You can have another serious discussion with him if you like, but my personal stance is that it's way past that. Way, way past that. Let's say he did change, somehow... Would you want to be with someone that you can honestly say violated you in this first part of the relationship? Even if it was rare?

I'm almost sorry if I come off too strong, because obviously this has connections to something difficult and traumatic in my own life. But I'm not quite sorry, because I sincerely feel this person is abusing you and I hope that you consider that.

Please take care, no matter what you decide to do.

[gryphonwing.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm having trouble responding to this, because my own rape was somewhat similar. :(

TW: Talk of SA denial

[nickelshoe.livejournal.com]

OP, I think you've gotten a lot of good input so far. I wanted to tell you that if you decide to have a conversation about this, you need to be prepared for his reaction. He is not likely to say, "Oh no, I am so sorry. I never thought about it like that." He is much more likely to turn it around on you and put you on the defensive. (This is likely to be triggering for some readers.) "It really hurts me that you think I've been raping you all this time." "You never stopped me!" "If you'd done X, I would have stopped." "I was just playing around." "You sure acted like you enjoyed it." He might say things that are totally untrue, like denying you ever said no. Even if he is basically a good guy (and definitely if he has been deliberately manipulating you), he is probably not going to be willing to be portrayed as someone who ignores non-consent.

I just don't want you to be caught by surprise. It may be very difficult for you to stand your ground here.

Re: TW: Talk of SA denial

[dearestevermore.livejournal.com]

As someone who crumbles easily under gaslighting, thank you for pointing this out and OP, I urge you to read this over and over and over before you talk to your significant other (if you choose to converse with him about this). If he has even an inkling of not-so-great-things lurking inside of him, he WILL do this to you, and it WILL be hard to keep your head on straight. If you start to feel that familiar "I'm overreacting" sensation, if you find yourself trying to backpeddle to avoid him lashing out, if you find yourself questioning your memories because of comments he is making in response to you, be aware that you are most likely being misled and remove yourself from the conversation and the situation as quickly as possible to recollect your thoughts. Call a friend, post here, anything to reassure you that everything you are feeling and experiencing is valid and true.

[helenkacan.livejournal.com]

I had to search back for 4 decades to a time when someone was trying to pressure me into sex (I was a virgin at the time) and his behaviour horrifies me. As others above have mentioned, he's disrespected your boundaries; even worse IMO is that he's disrespected your body. More than once. I believe he knows exactly what he's doing, especially because of the "good sport" comment. I won't sugar-coat it: that makes him a sadist.

The fact that he has more sexual experience than you does not mean that he actually knows HOW to be a good lover. If he's incapable of learning how to be sensitive to his partner's needs (and it so looks like it), it wouldn't matter if he had 20 years of being sexually active. I've had FWBs and even FBs who've treated me better than he's treating you.

I'm very worried for both your physical and psychological safety. What if it weren't just some sexual pain or discomfort for you? What if you were having a stroke or heart attack (pretty rare, but I recently met a woman who'd had a stroke in her early 20s) during sex – and he didn't stop – well, then you might be dead (or severely disabled, in the case I know). Or it could be something as innocuous as a muscle spasm. No matter how trivial, the correct response would be to pull out immediately and see how he could reduce your pain level.

Psychologically, it sure sounds as if he's grooming you. With his Jekyll-and-Hyde personality, he's been able to convince not only you but everyone around you that he's the perfect guy for you. Your friends probably envy you, because he's such a gentleman, and they wouldn't understand why you're complaining when they can't see anything but his respectful public behaviour.

Even worse, he's likely hoping you'll eventually get tired of fighting him off. [Typing that makes me feel sick inside.] Whether you're trying to control your fertility with FAM or unwell or simply not in the mood, that doesn't matter to him. Excuse me for my bluntness, but it seems as if you're no more valuable than a blow-up doll to him because to him the most important thing is that HE gets off, inside your body, NO MATTER WHAT.

I don't know whether the two of you live together (it wasn't clear). If you are, then I believe the safest thing for you would be to not be living with him. The first commenters were suggesting that you talk to him. I think it's already moved beyond the talking stage. Face it: he's NOT stupid (duh - he's in grad school); but he's oblivious and acting as if he's entitled to sex, anytime, anywhere.

I'm sorry you've been having to deal with this all by yourself for the last couple of months and I hope you'll be able to stay safe as you decide how to proceed.

[babytalking.livejournal.com]

I think it is definitely OK to be aggressive, loud and clear when he continues past the point of comfort. I'm not saying you should blame yourself for the times he didn't stop, because it sounds like you were being PLENTY clear. My husband will even stop and ask if everything is OK if he notices my facial expression isn't looking totally thrilled. What your boyfriend is doing is invasive and wrong, even if he loves you and even if things are OK the rest of the time. Being in a relationship does not give anybody an all-access-pass. Consent is still necessary. You mention being nervous about making a scene when he's forcing himself on you, but it seems entirely appropriate to me. He is doing something frightening, hurtful and wrong, and he deserves any negative reactions he gets. The onus isn't on you to react appropriately, however, the onus is on him to STOP FORCING HIMSELF on you. I don't know if he's oblivious or just values his own sex drive more than your comfort and happiness, but you don't have to be a "good sport" while somebody you care about actively hurts you in pursuit of an orgasm.

When you talk about it, don't be afraid to make him feel uncomfortable by fully explaining the seriousness of the situation. You don't need to tiptoe around his feelings or make sure he doesn't feel guilty. He has been causing you pain and disrespecting you, and he needs to know about it and fully realize the damage it causes.

I agree with other commenters that leaving the situation may be the best option. I know this is probably difficult and challenging for many reasons, but it is something to consider if the situation doesn't improve, and fast.

I'm really, really sorry you've had to experience this. Nobody deserves that kind of treatment, even from someone who is amazing 99% of the time.

[gryphonwing.livejournal.com]

I like what you said about your husband checking in... this is absolutely how it goes with a good lover. There's checking in regularly to make sure the other person is also enjoying themselves, and if there's evidence otherwise, things stop. I come to this from a fairly "toppy" place myself, and I take that responsibility SO seriously - whoever I'm with needs to understand that her pleasure is important, her comfort is incredibly important, she can always call a halt or whatever. And I pay attention to every tiny little detail of her reactions. If they seem off, I check in. Always.

I'm not amazing - to me, this is the absolute baseline requirement to have sex with someone. I'm always glad to hear someone else articulate the same thing. :) I wish the communication aspect of it all, and the mutual-consent-and-enjoyment stuff, was something we taught kids.

[loototherah.livejournal.com]

I agree with a ton of the comments here.

He needs to understand that no means no. ALWAYS. Just because he's in a relationship with you does NOT mean he gets carte blanche access to your body. If you're not in the mood, you're not in the mood. Period. If you want him to wear a condom, he needs to wear a condom. Period.

The "good sport" comment makes me really freaking angry. That's fucking unacceptable.

[gryphonwing.livejournal.com]

This is really hard to read, as a rape survivor. He's crossing that line and doing it repeatedly. Now, he may be truly clueless and assume that if you *really* want him to stop you'll make a big deal out of it. Our society does a nice job teaching us crap like that about sex. That's the only reason I'm not shouting "run away now."

But the fact that he didn't stop when you were in pain? Yeah, that puts this into "run away now" territory in my head.

It sounds like he feels entitled to your vagina, and assumes sex will go the way he wants it to, and the reason he's usually such a good person is that you're usually fine with that. When you want sex to go differently or don't want it at all, he's not listening. As long as you agree to do what he wants, everything is fine. That's a very, very common pattern for subtle abuse. And some of what he's done is not so subtle. He is using the size of his body and your unwillingness to make a big scene to get what he wants.

Assuming his "great guy otherwise" status means you really do want to salvage this, think of it as an educational thing. Either he learns some things or he leaves - you really need to make this clear. Tell him that you love him but that doesn't make it okay for him to hurt you. Tell him he's been hurting you, sometimes a lot, and that you need him to listen... and be ready for him to try to make it your fault.

Actually, consider telling him what active consent is, how it works, and that you're not interested in having sex with anyone who doesn't agree. Active consent isn't just not saying no - it's enthusiastically saying yes, and it's the standard that we *should* be teaching.

If he doesn't listen, that's a sign that he doesn't think of you as a full and equal partner. He'll likely be pretty defensive and try to blame you for not communicating clearly enough. Tell him that it's not your job to make sure he understands that you mean what you say, it's his. Tell him that having sex with someone who says not to - including refusing to wear a condom - is rape and you have no interest in being with a rapist, if he starts to blame you. And remember: you are RIGHT. No one, ever, has the right to stay *inside your body* when you don't want them there, to overrule your bodily autonomy. It doesn't matter how great he is most of the time or how much you care about him; when he does this shit he is wrong. How he takes hearing that will tell you a great deal about whether or not you can have a healthy relationship with him. I'm not saying he should just accept it - most people would get defensive - but if he can't get through defensive into remorseful, please for the love of all that's holy walk away.

Even if he is remorseful, I'd suggest no sex unless you initiate it for a while. If he can't hear your no, he loses the privilege of asking the question, in my book. If he won't accept you taking the reins - that he's screwed up enough that he does not get to have what he wants when he wants it, at least for a while - leave.

I'm sorry... I'm trying hard to be helpful here, but I'm horrified. My own rape was long ago, but I could have written your post pretty much word for word at the time, and things got worse from there. If he was 15 rather than 27 I'd be a little bit less horrified... anyway, part of it is that someone who's willing to override your objections using emotional and physical manipulation in order to get what he wants even when it hurts you is likely to do exactly that same thing in non-sexual situations too. Sure, maybe he doesn't usually, but what happens when you're up against something he really wants?

[polylizzy.livejournal.com]

I did not expect this to be so triggering for me but it was so I apologize in advance if my wording isn't as delicate as it usually is. I will try to make these ME statements.
I have not read any of the other comments yet either so this might be redundant.

My ex started with this kind of behavior and eventually it lead to physical domestic abuse.
I wouldn't give him the fellatio or anal sex he wanted so he started sleeping with other people who would. He beat me up when I called him on it and told him if it continued our 11 year marriage would be over. He continued, I objected, he beat me up gain, I called the cops and had him arrested.

Months later, while going through individual and group therapy, I was finally able to see ALL of the little things he had been doing to control me. My physical actions, my thoughts, my finances and my life.
It is a power and control issue, he was raping me because "it was my job as a wife", he was forcing me to have sex at times and in a way that I had said NO to.

No matter how much you love him get out now before he spends the next decade removing you from your friends and family and brainwashing you to believe no one else will ever love you or that you can not survive without him.

This is domestic abuse, it IS sexual abuse and it is rape if he gets naked and forces you to have sex with him in a style or at a time when you have said no. The existing relationship does not guarantee ANY sexual contact.

[jocelina.livejournal.com]

First off, I want to say that I understand that being triggered can make commenting really, really hard, and I can see and appreciate that, despite that, you were very careful in the way that you stated things here.

I did just want to point out, though, that toward the end of your comment it seems like you veered from sharing your experience into defining the OP's. I know that you're speaking out of concern for the OP and their well-being, but I do think it's important (especially when you think someone might be in an abusive situation) to avoid defining others' experiences.

[thebunnygeek.livejournal.com]

I agree with everyone here.
I've never been in a situation like yours, but plenty of people have.
Please just be kind to yourself, and realize that you don't need to be with someone who feels like it's your job to provide them with sex at their liking. As the previous poster said, no relationship guarantees sex.
Again, please be kind to yourself and realize that everyone here is willing to help you out with whatever you choose to do.
<333

[makoto-kitten.livejournal.com]

I agree with almost everything that has been said already, but the part about the 99% good/ 1% bad (paraphrasing a bit) resonates with me so so much. I spent two years in college with a man I thought I'd marry, who I felt more compatible with than anyone else, and it took me literally two years to figure out we were in a cycle of abuse. In all our arguments I would be so desperately unhappy and furious with ways he had violated me (sometimes but typically not sexually, but reading my journal, etc) and promise myself I'd never let it happen again, that things would have to get better, then within the day we'd made up and I'd be so happy again.

I still feel ambivalent because I think we had an intellectual connection I will never get again, but I also know that sounds exactly like what a victim of abuse would say. I'm saying this because it's obviously easy for all of us to tell you to get out, because just looking at the bad stuff makes it seem unbelievably terrible, but you also have the magical side of the relationship, which we can't see. But the sort of Jekyll/Hyde thing is not OK... you can't justify some things, no matter how good the rest of the time is, and it's probably going to get worse. He is still that awful 1% the whole time he seems perfect, even though it might seem impossible that someone so charming and good to you could be so bad.

To underline what others have said, he is wrong to treat you like that, and it is not OK. I hope it works out OK for you.

[relight-it.livejournal.com]

Thanks for sharing your experience. I hope that you're doing OK, too, and I completely feel you on this:

I still feel ambivalent because I think we had an intellectual connection I will never get again.

[zemi-chan.livejournal.com]

I'm totally not trying to be mean or disrespectful in any way, but if someone doesn't understand that NO means NO, then I just don't think it's worth dealing with them, even if they are "wonderful" and "great" the rest of the time. If I was going through this personally, I would just tell him to get lost. That sort of behavior is just never an acceptable thing in my mind. It's not okay.

[polylizzy.livejournal.com]

this post has been pestering the back of my head all day.

Some of us have said "he might just be clueless", others, like myself have said "He is being abusive". The op has only talked about the sexual aspects that are bothering them, they have not said anything about the rest of the relationship and they do not have to.

I thought I would share the Power and Control wheel that made me realize how emotionally abusive my ex really had been.

It was given to my by the advocate at the domestic abuse shelter I was working with for the beginning stages of my recovery. I would just like the OP to read it in their own time, think about the little things her partner might be doing and use the whole picture, not just the sexual issues to help them make their decisions on how to handle the relationship.

For me it was things like making jokes about my bathroom habits and my being overweight out in public. Grabbing or even hugging and kissing me at inappropriate times or without warning. Insisting there was no time or money for me to go to college or be part of a local civic organization. Insisting that HIS money was more important than mine and insisting that I quit jobs or cut back on hours so he could have the career he wanted. Things like never helping with maintaining the household, leaving his dishes and laundry everywhere and then blaming me and letting his family blame me when the house was a mess.

Please look over this chart, I found the best one I could.
http://www.lessonsfromliterature.org/docs/manual/Power_and_Control_Wheel.pdf

Edited to add a cycle of abuse chart also based on the warning a previous commenter made.
http://www.safeplaceministries.com/pdf/Learning%20to%20Recognize%20Abuse.pdf

[relight-it.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the resources - I really appreciate it, and for sharing your story. I'm really glad you reached out for help when you needed it--and I hope it's helping.

Absolutely nothing else -- or anything like anything else named on the power and control wheel is happening. Apart from this, he is the most supportive, positive, encouraging, thoughtful, loving partner I could ask for.

[lilsongbird.livejournal.com]

I'll be honest and say I may not be the most coherent here as what I want to discuss was recent and still pretty raw emotionally.

I was in a FWB relationship, and even though I had stated up front I wanted to use condoms, he would do the few thrusts to a few minutes of thrusts before putting a condom on, or verbally pressuring me into sex when I wasn't in the mood. I felt kinda uncomfortable with it, but I didn't know how to stop things without creating a scene... something for reasons I couldn't put my finger on I felt nervous about doing.

Things escalated from there. I expressed very clear non-consent. I was having a flareup of some issues down south and sex was painful for me so I told him why and I was not in the mood. Linked to these issues I was wearing a skirt without underwear to help things breath. He used his size to pin me down and physically forced me into sex. I still feel sick thinking about it. I was in such a state of shock I froze up and didn't fight back. He left shortly after and I threw up and broke down. I finally worked up the nerve to confront him about how wrong it had been... and like the above commenter warned he tried to make it about me and "my issues" saying "well you should of said something to stop me" and if you can believe it "you made me horny talking about your vagina". Yeah. He actually did have me feeling like it was my fault for a while.

What is going on is NOT ok OP. I know though from experience how hard it can be to accept that this is not ok and normal.

[butterflybee260.livejournal.com]

I just want to give you a giant internet hug right now. *hug*

[atalanta0jess.livejournal.com]

It's my general belief that how people deal with boundaries is incredibly important. He may be wonderful the other 99% of the time because he is not being asked to respect boundaries the rest of the time. When you do set up a firm boundary, he disregards it. That's something to pay a lot of attention to, IMO. You shouldn't have to physically enforce your boundaries...if a person loves you, they should WANT you to be comfortable. They should respect you because they choose to, not because you physically force them to by pushing them off of you or whatever.

I have some questions for you...

[alleriah8.livejournal.com]

...that may help you make the decision on what to do a little more easier.

If you changed your statement to say "He's great 99% of the time, but there's that 1%, every few months or so, where he smacks me in the face," would you still have this dilemma? It's the only comparison I could come up with off the top of my head. Both your statement and this involve hurting in some way, so they don't really seem that different.

Or what about this question:
You have a pot of spaghetti. You drop a very small piece of fecal matter into the pot of spaghetti. Do you still eat it? Maybe, if you were desperately hungry. 99% of it is still spaghetti, and 1% is fecal. Chances are, you will throw it out...

What kind of advice would you give to your little sister if she was asking you this?

A lot of people have given great advice, advice I probably would have given if it hadn't been given already. But only YOU can make the decision on what to do, and only YOU really know the guy you have grown to love. Do you think he is the type of guy who would listen to a serious conversation about this, or is he one to continue this behavior again and again, not giving a care or concern to how you feel?

If I were you, I'd also evaluate the other "perfect" 99% of the relationship again in your head. Is it really that perfect, or has he done other controlling things such as choose what you should eat when you go out to eat, or pick the movie you should see, despite you wanting to see something else, make plans for the two of you without talking to you first? These things seem small, but they pave the path for a devastating controlling relationship.

Also, consider this: If everyone is telling you that something is wrong, then something probably is. Notice how not ONE person said it wasn't that big of a deal.

Take care of yourself. Remember, you come FIRST.

Re: I have some questions for you...

[helenkacan.livejournal.com]

I find your spaghetti metaphor intriguing and would expand it to include the following truth. When the 1% fecal matter is dropped into the 99% spaghetti, it will end up contaminating the entire pot of spaghetti so that none of it is edible.