some sexual orientation question...

[alovelytale.livejournal.com]

Last night I had an in depth chat with an online friend of mine, whom I am probably meeting next summer. Sex being the main activity during her stay here. I asked her about it, since she knows I am bi but she's never said anything about her own orientation yet she's so willingly agreeing to gay sex.

She said she was straight, but upon further questioning she's actually quite conufsed and I can see why. I also have some broader questions about sexual orientation.


Firstly, is your orientation about sexual attraction or physical attraction?

My friend, as I discovered, is repulsed by the idea of penetration. She will only do clitoral stimulation. She gets off on lesbian porn even though she's "straight" (says she), has given a blow job before but didn't really like it, and has never had any inclination to get sexually intimate with a boy (that involves penetration). When I asked her what he crushes on boys are like, she said it's physical, she gets really turned on by their faces and hair, but that's it. Earlier we were talking about sexual fantasies, and she said hers was to fuck her manager at work. She explained this a bit more, saying that by that, she means making out and him eating her out. (I'm sorry, darling, if by chance you are reading this! I'm curious about it all, that's why I'm asking<3)

So I'm wondering, what kind of attraction defines sexual orientation. Sexual? Lol. I wonder what you all think her sexual orientation would be. Not so I can go off and say "People think you're _____, so you are" but because I'm genuinely interested. I've accepted myself since I was 12 (now 16) but only really came to terms with it this last year, and it is now a topic with anyone that I am highly interested. Because it's not really a definite thing, you know? I'd like to hear what you have to say.

Second, is there a scale of orientation?

Take me, for example. I know I'm not completely bisexual since I am way more attracted to females than males. So perhaps, something like this exists?


(pretend bi is in the middle =P)

Does anyone else kind of fall between orientations?


(PS, I tried to take a look through the archives but I find the vulvapedia really difficult to navigate, and wasn't coming up with much of anything, so I thought I may as well ask. If perhaps I did overlook something directly related to this stuff, kindly link me to it!)


Thanks everyone :)

Comments

[macadamiaranch.livejournal.com]

"Second, is there a scale of orientation?"

There's the Kinsey Scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale).

[alovelytale.livejournal.com]

Oooh, interesting. Thank you!

[cdsdralion.livejournal.com]

What I was going to suggest.

[tydokia.livejournal.com]

What is the definition of "incidentally" as used in that scale?

*curious*

[malantha.livejournal.com]

I would guess that it means they're straight, with a very few exceptions. Like.. they're not really attracted to [whichever gender], but there have been isolated incidents. Ya know?

[cthulhulicious.livejournal.com]

That's the stereotypical question to the Sex Q&A columns, of course --

I identify as 100% absolutely straight-as-an-arrow yessiree bob, except for the time I incidentally had super-hot gay sex with one of my co-workers when we were at a convention. (And that lifeguard in Cancun) (And somebody I met in a bar last week who looked like my favorite movie star.)

Please reassure me that I am 100% absolutely straight-as-an-arrow yessiree bob.

Sincerely,
100%ASAAAYB

:-)

[cdsdralion.livejournal.com]

Does anyone else kind of fall between orientations?

I think I do. I fall somewhere between straigh and bi. Probably about a 2 on the Kinsey scale.

[paraxeni.livejournal.com]

Wow. Is it possible she just doesn't realise that 'straight' just isn't the default for some people? I assumed I was straight because I thought that if you were gay you had to be a poor, tortured soul like people on TV and in books. I didn't realise that you could just 'be gay' and not really know about it. I'd always been obsessed with women, looked at them sexually, fantasised about them, only looked at lesbian porn and naked women online etc. I honestly thought that no-one really wanted to have sex with men! I was relieved when I realised I was a lesbian. :D

To be honest if she's planning on hooking up with you sexually then she's probably not 'straight'. A lot of hetero women don't like penetration and do look at lesbian porn. I personally love penetration and get off on gay male porn and occasionally straight porn, probably because a) most 'lesbian' porn is shit, and b) other stuff seems really kinky to me because it's not something I'd ever engage in.

[alovelytale.livejournal.com]

"Is it possible she just doesn't realise that 'straight' just isn't the default for some people? "

She attends catholic school, and always has. Which is why she's probably in a bit of denial.

I'm convinced she's not straight because because she is serious about hooking up with me. And other stuff. But I understand that the pressure of going to catholic school is making her want to be straight.

Thanks for your perspective =]

[paraxeni.livejournal.com]

Ahh that makes sense. To be honest people were always asking me if I was gay, and it puzzled me. I'd laugh and say "I don't think so!" but at the same time the thought of sex with a woman didn't bother me, I said I'd try anything once! I thought every woman looked at other women like I did, that everybody hung out on gay websites, and just put up with men because.. well, that's what you're supposed to do, isn't it? It wasn't even denial really, it was flat-out not knowing what 'being gay' felt like. I didn't feel different, or special, I was just me, I still am. I don't conform to any of society's stereotypes of what a lesbian should look like or act like, but no-one's ever been surprised when I've come out, especially friends and family.
I'm glad that despite being raised in a religious family, with pretty traditional values I'm still totally free to be myself. I've never had to force myself to be 'straight' and go through with marriage or anything, like a lot of my friends and my partner. I've never been upset about being gay, I wouldn't change it. It's not massively significant in the grand scheme of things, I have far more interesting traits than that! I'm just like everyone else, but I share my life with a woman and not a man. There's been no pressure on me to change, but I'm very lucky. I'm glad I didn't realise I was gay earlier, school was bad enough without being the school dyke! Your friend has the rest of her life to do what she wants, and decide if she ever wants to apply a label to herself or her orientation, there's no rush. It's hard enough growing up these days without having to angst about orientation. If she's happy enough as she is, then good luck to her.

Hope this has helped a bit!

[paraxeni.livejournal.com]

Ugh, ignore the shoddy formatting, it's after 2am here! :D

[malantha.livejournal.com]

There are a million ways to identify! In addition to homosexual, bisexual, and heterosexual, there's also asexual (which most people have heard of), pansexual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pansexual) (that's how I identify), and fluid sexuality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_sexuality).

So, I don't doubt that both of you may be somewhere in the middle of those other 3 orientations.

It's really too hard to say though where she is on the scale. She might not be terribly attracted to men (or interested in sex with them), but that doesn't mean she's *more* attracted to women. Or, she may actually be more interested in women, but perhaps she was brought up to believe that being a lesbian is "wrong" so that she feels she can't identify as anything but straight. There's a lot to take into consideration whenever you try to label yourself!

[stateofwonder.livejournal.com]

I'm not really crazy about the Kinsey scale/other scales of orientation. To me, sexuality is fluid and can vary from one day to the next. I also don't really find it useful to pinpoint exactly what my sexual desires are. *shrug* Maybe it's just me.

Tons and tons of people fall 'in between' categories. Pomosexual is a term I like -- postmodern sexuality tends to be a lot more fluid and less based on categorizations. There's a book called PoMoSexuals by Carol Queen, I'd recommend looking it up if you're interested in queer and sexuality theory.

There's also 'homoflexible' for people who are 'mostly gay'.

Personally, I usually just identify as queer. It's nice and ambiguous.

[frolicnaked.livejournal.com]

I'm liking "queer" as a self-descriptor more and more these days, simply because it's the one word that covers everything as my sexual orientation slides around from place to place. (Imagine the line graph in the OP's post, but make it 3-D. Now slather it up with some silicone-based lube for easy sliding purposes. That's me.)

I used to identify as bisexual, but I've come to find it a lacking term for me. This is because, even though there's never been a time when I've been exclusively attracted to one gender, there are times when one gender is much more appealing to me than are others and when I'm not "smack in the middle" of the scale, as the term bisexual suggests to me. And I thought about the term pansexual, but to my way of thinking, the fact that gender does sometimes matter a great deal in whether I'm sexually or romantically attracted to a person, I decided the term wasn't a good fit.

So, I like queer. It's shorter and requires less explanation.

Amd personally, I find a certain amount of comfort in finding a label that works for me. But it's also even more important to me that I found it, and that I choose to apply it to myself. And I also think there's a huge difference between self-identifying -- if that's what a person chooses to do -- and another person applying a label to you.

[zellie-bean.livejournal.com]

There are too many variables to limit ourselves by those terms, I think. I like sayiing pansexual. I've been attracted to so few people I can count them on one hand...more guys than girls, but the girls are there and no less important in any physical/spiritual/mental/emotional sense. People are all so different, have so many different hings to offer each other, complement each other, etc. I like who I like. Why limit that by what's between someone's legs? That's as strange to me as saying 'well, I only like blondes'... I tend to go more for dark hair than light hair but eh, that's such a minor consideration...if I REALLY liked someone, they could bleach their hair and it wouldn't make a difference in my attraction to them. The sexual acts that I like/don't like don't have much to do with it either... if I ONLY ONLY liked penetration but the person I was attracted to was female, there are toys. If I HATED penetration but the person I was attracted to was a guy...there is oral.

[kaelstra.livejournal.com]

I agree with everyone else.

I'd like to note that I'm very bi-curious, and I think, given I met the right girl, I'd be more than happy to have a lesbian/bisexual encounter with her. Problem is, I've yet to meet any girls I'd do this with, save perhaps one, and she's married and lives reaaaaaaaaaally far away, so it's a moot point. So thus, my bicuriousness goes unexplored. I don't claim to be bisexual though, since it seems every Myspace teenage girl who wants to be liked by boys says she's bisexual, despite lack of experience or actual interest.

Oddly enough, I'm more emotionally attracted to men than women, but physically moreso to women. I dunno where the hell that leaves me.

[purple-ivy.livejournal.com]

For me, I am definitely sexually attracted to women and have been since I was young (around 9 y/o and up). If the opportunity presented itself, I would no doubt have sex with a woman. I find women turn me on quicker than men do. I am also very much attracted to men sexually.
I used to consider myself bi, and pretty much in the middle on your scale as I really did like both men and women, sexually, emotionally, spiritually, etc.
However, as I am now (18 y/o), I really only seem emotionally, spiritually, romantically, etc. connected to men. When I imagine my future, I imagine it with a guy. It's not that I COULDN'T be connected to a woman beyond just sexual/physical attraction, because I think I could, but I just seem to connect better to guys. I like their...manness.

So, I don't really know where I am, or what I am. And that's fine for now. I think I've pretty much given up on trying to put myself into a catagory and I hope that I am open minded enough to, if the situation was there, fall in love with a woman just like I could fall in love with a guy.

On the scale you drew, I'm somewhere between bi and straight at the moment, I think.
If I had the courage right now, I would activley search out a sexual relationship with a woman, and if that were to become more than just sex, then I would be fine with that.

[unripe.livejournal.com]

I think perhaps to let your friend decide herself a little more and avoid wanting to put labels to her. She could be still trying to explore her sexuality and be uncomfortable with making definite statements incase they feel wrong. It's kinder, as others have said, sexuality can be a pretty changable thing and is so highly individual that the labels in the end don't mean much (except a way to slide people into categories.)

Me, I was devirginised (Devirginated. Deflowered! Love that word haha) by a girl. I was really attracted by her body, her legs, her breasts. Kissing her and her skin felt smooth and gorgeous but neither of us knew what we were doing because both were inexperienced. Now I'm in a relationship with a boy and love penetration and sex with him and love his body. And I'm attracted to mens bodies and their genitals and women's bodies but not their genitals (even though vaginas are real cool) - I don't know whether that's because I feel confused and inadequate when it comes to handling vaginas for best results, or whether it's just the way I am (obviously more exploration necessary.) Hence, I'm about 2 on the Kinsey, but that could be a 3. And people I fall in love with (in that immediate talking-for-an-hour-and-I'm-at-their-feet kinda way, or a longer term slightly more stable type of love) are all genders and all ages and it largely depends on attitude and personality. So yeah, in between orientations certainly.

Yeah, sexuality is weird, I forget about it most of the time for the sake of my sanity. Who needs the prefixes? We can just be sexuals.

[dimethirwen.livejournal.com]

I'm not even sure where I fit in on that scale. I'm physically attracted to both men and women, but more men than women (at least at this point. I've definitely had more crushes on men than on women). However, I'm more intellectually/emotionally/etc. attracted to women than men. It's all very strange. But I think you can definitely fall between orientations.

When I came out, a very wise friend said "What's important to remember is that you don't label yourself. You're attracted to who you're attracted to. Don't over-analyze it by thinking that you have to give it a name."

[misslynn.livejournal.com]

to add my 2.5c, i'm a slightly odd case -- though probably not really, given what i've read.

i ID as bisexual, and nowadays find just as many men as women attractive. but i'm engaged, and was falling in love with my (male) fiance right as i was also coming out. so i've never done more than smooch a woman, and though i'd like to ... well, see what it's like someday, i feel a bit odd some days IDing as bi, considering i have no real experience with women, but that's how my attractions run.

i also was sort of oblivious to my own sexuality until after college; even though i read queer porn in high school and always thought it would be A-OK with me if i was gay, but knew i couldn't be since i liked guys, it took a long time to occur to me that i might be bi.

so your friend may be in denial; she may be deep in the closet; she may be oblivious. hard to say. sounds like she's not totally straight though, that's for sure :)

[queensugar.livejournal.com]

I've certainly always believed that sexuality is a spectrum, and that people can not only occupy infinitely diverse points on that spectrum, but that they can move along it during their lives.

At one point in my life, I was a wee bit off the "bi" mark on the "straight" side. Years later, I'm now much closer to halfway to the "straight" side... in other words, less attracted to women than I used to be. My boyfriend is quite close to "bi" on the "straight" side, and so forth.

Of course, some people do not move; and some people stay pretty firmly at one end or another.

As far as what determines orientation... honestly, not to oversimplify, but I think the major determiner is how an individual chooses to identify. Ultimately, I identify as "straight," even though I certainly have been (and probably will be again) romantically and sexually attracted to women.

On the flipside, I know guys who adamantly identify as "gay," despite having had sex with more women than some of the straighest guys I know.

If pressed, I'd say that in my observation, romantic interest usually trumps sexual interest insofar as determining orientation though. I think the bigger factor often in how people identify themselves is who they want to be with, not just who they want to have sex with.

I mean, there are still a couple of girls I'd love to get nekkid with, but the primary factor in me calling myself "straight" is that for me, I can only conceptualize building a relationship with a male. That's what suits me.

I think I'm just ranting on random stuff.

I agree, sexuality is fluid and complex

[sand-woman.livejournal.com]

I don't fit with that scale. I started out identifying as bisexual and dated men until I was 19, knowing I was more into women. Then I identified as a lesbian exclusively for five years, having disgust and distaste for the male genitals. Then I fell in love with my best friend, who is male. This completely threw me and but I eventually told him and he felt the same. Major in-love symptoms, the most amazing I've ever felt and I moved in with him three months later. We are still living together and I plan to spend my life with him. I love his body. I find other men's physicality unappealing but love his. He is adamant that I get to identify as a lesbian and he won't take that from me. I certainly don't feel bisexual because I'm not attracted to any other men. We're very happy, but we certainly confuse people.

[scien.livejournal.com]

What they all said. I (female) am occasionally attracted to women, but only sexually. As opposed to romantically the way I am with guys. Thus I don't think I could have a long term relationship with a woman, and thus I don't consider myself 'bi', as I think that would be misleading. I don't consider myself quite straight, either, though, as I wouldn't mind having sex with a girl :)

So yes. It's all very fluid and situational. It's not like people can ever fit into three boxes (straight, bi, gay). I tend to consider these as labels mostly just useful to indicate what you are seeking (or what you would seek if you were free to), although they are of course statements of identity as well.