I don't know if this is the place for it, but I need help

[angi-is-altered.livejournal.com]

About 4 years into our marriage, I found out my husband was wearing my underwear and bras. He was also involved with an on-line sex community. I did not handle it well.  I am pretty understand,but I felt betrayed. Anyways, we have now been married 11 years. He dropped the community,but he still wears my underwear. I know this but he refuses to talk about it.

Today my 4 year old daughter made a horrifying discovery of many of my underthings hidden under my dresser. They were all dirty. Now you have to understand I HATE dirty clothes and do the wash every single day. My only deduction is that they were used by my husband. 

Now I have the task of bringing this up with him. I don't want to be angry but I am pretty upset my daughter found them and touched them. I ran her to the bathroom and scrubbed her hands.

Should I bring it up tonight or wait a few days and then bring it up. What do I say? I am in a unconformable spot here.

Any suggestions,advice will be helpful.

Comments

[ticktockman.livejournal.com]

Your husband's fetish is colliding with your phobia about germs. Both of you have strong drives/compulsions/neuroses that are normally fairly harmless, but in this case could ruin a marriage. You're also worried that your daughter could somehow be harmed by all this. I don't think she will take ill from contact with dirty clothing, but you need to hear it from somebody a lot more expert than I am.

I recommend couples counseling. The two of you need to talk this out, guided by a competent and informed therapist.

good luck

[archangelbeth]

Well... For the first part, it's not unusual for some penis-owners -- cismen and closeted transwomen both -- to have a fetish about wearing women's undergarments. (For a transwoman, whether aware and closeted or in denial, it's less a fetish and more... identity.) I'd be more ticked about him wearing your undergarments and not buying his own, unless y'all are a similar size. The online sex community is also something I'd be making the beady eyes at.

If you mean "dirty" as in "masturbated in," then that's an even more common fetish. There is a thriving business in selling panties that've been worn (or "worn" in some cases).

So... I'd try to be understanding of his fetish (or identity issues) if at all possible. It's not something that a four-year-old should have to be involved in, but a four-year-old shouldn't be getting more than clinical and vague (it's possible! I've done it!) overviews of the whole "sex" thing anyway.

And there's probably what you say, tonight: "Hey, our kid found a bunch of my undergarments under the dresser. It looked like they'd been [worn/masturbated in/defecated in]. I can't think how they would've gotten under there, unless you've put them there. I'm very upset that you left dirty underwear somewhere that they could be found by her. We need to talk about buying you your own panties and bras, which would probably fit better anyway, and making sure that we don't have to explain complicated stuff to the kid. We can get a lock-box for your stuff if necessary, so she doesn't get into it."

Basically... I think it's going to be necessary for you to, well, put on the Really Calm Person panties, and do your best to make sure you aren't shaming him for his fetish/identity issues, but you're upset that he left dirty garments where the kid could find them. It might be worth asking him if he's wearing them as a fetish (and if so, if the fetish is for underwear you have worn, or for wearing women's underwear), or if he has gender fluidity issues. Try to be clear that you care about him (or, well, her) and want to support him so he can be happy, even if you don't understand this kink of his -- while at the same time trying to keep the external situation that y'all show your kid simple.

(If the kid already knows that Daddy wear's Mommy's underwear -- and she might -- then... It's basically a case of talking to her and reminding her that what underwear people have on is a personal thing, and private, and we don't talk about it. If it's fetish and not gender issues, you could say something like, "Some people love their wives so much that they want to be close like that. It's like wanting a hug when the other person isn't there. It's kind of quirky, and not everyone does it, but it's kind of a private form of a woman wearing her husband's shirt sometimes.")

If it's a gender-fluidity issue... Kids are actually pretty sturdy, and are much more likely to be happy if they have two happy moms than if they have a tense and unhappy pair of parents. But if that's what comes out, try to keep calm and if necessary, say, "I need to process this and get over my knee-jerk reactions and do some research."

Good luck!

[misheymo.livejournal.com]

great answer!

[boroto.livejournal.com]

Yes! Exactly what I would've said, only I'm sure you say it more eloquently.

[adeleyna.livejournal.com]

Yeah you definitely don't want to shame him. He was probably shamed in the past, which is why he doesn't want to talk about it, even with you. But he needs to if he continues to wear YOUR underwear and your daughter finds it. But I think it's better for him to have his own! I wouldn't want to share my underwear with anyone I know, intimate or not. I'm not a germaphobe, but that is just gross.

[shark-o-saurus.livejournal.com]

I agree with all of this, but (to me) this response also assumes that you are comfortable with your husband's fetish/potential shift in identity. If you are, that's great! If you aren't, you may want to do some thinking.

You seem to associate him wearing your underwear with him being a part of an online sex community; can you separate those events? Would you be okay with him cross-dressing if you knew he wasn't in those communities? If not, would you be okay with him wearing women's underwear, so long as you didn't see the underwear? And what are his limits? How authentic does he want/need to be to be happily married? I think these are questions you should ask yourself (and him), so you two can come up with a solution that works for you.

[knittinggoddess.livejournal.com]

I agree that there are two separate issues here: Your germ phobia (which I honestly share to a large extent) and your husband's cross-dressing.

Are you okay with his cross-dressing? Does he realize the extent of your germ/dirty clothes aversion?

I see three different directions a calm, productive, mutually respectful conversation could go:

1. If you are not comfortable with his cross dressing at all, he figures out a way to relieve those perfectly natural and generally harmless urges that leaves you emotionally protected.

2. If you are okay with his cross-dressing, and don't mind him using your clothing, he learns how to wash the underthings to your satisfaction and does so immediately after use, returning them to their regular place.

3. He buys his own underthings, and washes them on his own schedule, trying not to leave them where you'd find them and be grossed out.

Unless there was lots of bodily fluids caked onto the underwear, or she put the underwear in her mouth, it's highly unlikely that she could come to any physical harm upon finding the underwear. If you explained anything about the finding in a way that made underwear shameful, well, that could have some impacts later on. But if you were just like, "ugh, really? Thanks, go wash your hands," that doesn't seem too bad.

[shark-o-saurus.livejournal.com]

I think this was very well thought out, and you did an excellent job explaining the OP's main options.

[karenoh.livejournal.com]

Have you ever read Dan Savage's column?

He has a unique, blunt and sometimes harsh style that is not for everyone, but I feel his advice and thoughts on crossdressing could be potentially helpful for both you and your husband.

Here's one post to get you started:

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=12996

Sounds like there might be support groups and online chat rooms for wives of cross-dressing husbands, according to the post I linked to.

I'm sure Dan has answered many similar questions over the years: if you like his input, I'd encourage you to scan the archives -- and also search for online support groups for people in your position.

I myself would not have a problem with the cross-dressing, but I would have a problem with my partner taking my "intimates", using and dirtying them without asking -- and then leaving them dirty without washing and storing them as I would like.

However, I would guess that your husband probably has some shame about this fetish. My guess is part of why he "hid" instead of returned your clothes.

I think in order for you to have a productive discussion about this, it would be ideal to separate his fetish (he likes wearing women's underwear) and the issue of him using and "dirtying" your personal property without your consent.

Does that make sense? My issue would be with him using my clothing without asking.

I would suggest making sure you are calm when you have the discussion with him, and, to the extent possible, try to approach it with kindness and compassion: he has a fetish that you know he is uncomfortable sharing with you, perhaps in part due to the way you handled it in the past (you mentioned that you did not handle it well). I would encourage you to try to approach the conversation with an open mind about his cross dressing, however he must also learn to respect your personal property.

Would you be open to discussing the possibility of buying him some of his own undies that he could do what he likes with? Or work out some sort of system that works for both of you?

Good luck to you both!

[knittinggoddess.livejournal.com]

This is a really great comment.

And big ups for suggesting Dan Savage. His column (and now podcast) have really shaped my sense of sexual ethics. Because the archives might be difficult to search, know that you can get his entire backlog of posts (including Questions Of The Day) for your iPod, iPhone or Android. It's more easily searchable; I often use mine to locate the appropriate article and then go find it online to share. The iThing version costs $2, but the Android version is free.

[makale-83.livejournal.com]

Not a big deal that he wears women's underthings. It IS a big deal that he wears YOURS and then DOESN'T WASH THEM. I would be upset about that too!!

I would just bring it up after your daughter goes to bed and say something like, If you want to continue your habit of wearing women's underwear - you have to go buy your own. You are not permitted to wear mine ANYMORE, and if I find anymore of my things in my drawers DIRTY then XYZ will happen.

Obviously XYZ is up to you.

[neumeindil.livejournal.com]

Suggested wording: "My concern is not that you're wearing women's underwear, but that you seem to be so ashamed about it. I love you and I want what's best for our family. Can you help me understand?"

[aki-the-wingly.livejournal.com]

I think you could start with telling him that you need to sit down and talk with him about something and schedule a time to do so, maybe even give a small hint about what the topic might be about as not cause any sort of shock when the topic is brought up.

When talking about the subject, let him know that you won't judge him, but you want to know what drives him to do what he is doing so you better understand. Once he's done, then let him know that there are certain boundaries that need to be followed, and that if he wants to continue his fetish, then he can do it in a more reasonable manner without causing problems for the family. Depending on what causes him to wear the underwear, you can suggest to him that he can buy his own and that now that you understand the situation, he doesn't have to hide if from you anymore.

And yes, let him know that he needs to be clean about it and considerate of what is yours.