vaginapagina | Sexual Assult?

Sexual Assult?

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I am really confused over a situation. Basically last night, I got a little too drunk and my friends and I were giving eachother massages. One of my friends is a massage therapist so she was teaching us moves. I was hanging out with her and two other guys. I was walking around pretty comfortably without my top on.

Anyway this guy goes on and on about how big his penis is, and friend and I were like "yeah right....prove it" He said he had to get it hard first and began touching himself and later asked if he could give me a massage.

I didn't say anything, because well, I was pretty out of it. And I thought he was so just going to massage my back like earlier.

So he is wearing a loose pair of shorts straddling me and "massaging". He creeps down to my breasts and I move away. Then he starts humping and rubbing me with his crotch. at times thrusting all the while with clothes on. He even trys to put his hand down my pants but I moved away. I said no and I said I wasnt comfortable and stop but he didn't. Part of me thinks maybe he didn't hear me. I was all messed up and probably mumbling.

I feel confused on this issue. In away I feel responsible for letting him massage me, and taking off my top and being a little bit of a "tease" that night. I did ask for him to prove his size and on his behalf he was a little drunk too. Also, even though I didn't want him doing this, I think part of me was maybe a little turned on by this.

What makes me mad is my "girlfriend" didnt do anything about it. She was just talking in the corner with another guy. later, when I talked about it, she said he did that too her before and laughed it off.

This is guy is a friend of mine so I am really at a loss what to do.

Sorry if this doesnt belong here. I am just angry and feeling pretty disgusted with myself right now

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You might want to put this under a cut, just in case it is triggering for some people.

I don't feel able to make the judgement call about whether what you described is or isn't rape- but I can certainly understand that it can be very distressing for you.

You may wish to consider talking to your friend about what happened, so you can have an idea of what his intentions were and what he believes happened. It may also be helpful for him to know how you're feeling about the whole thing.

You may also benefit by talking to some sort of counselling service- there are sexual assault resource centres in most places, otherwise many crisis phone lines may be able to help you have someone to talk through your thoughts and feelings with.

Sorry if I'm a little incoherent, I'm tired. Good luck with whatever you decide.

OP, thanks again for trusting us enough to share your story. We hope that the comments you receive will be supportive and healing.

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midnightsphinx. I'm stopping by on behalf of the VP Team to ask if you could do a couple of things for us. Firstly, could you please edit your post so that any potentially triggering information is behind a descriptive LJ-cut? This is helpful for those who might find post content upsetting or hard to read. You can find out more about how to make an LJ-cut tag here (http://www.livejournal.com/support/faqbrowse.bml?faqid=75). For more information on why this is important in VP, please refer to this part (http://www.vaginapagina.com/index.php?title=VaginaPagina_FAQ#Things_that_make_VP_say_YAY.21) of our FAQ (http://www.vaginapagina.com/index.php?title=VaginaPagina_FAQ).

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It sounds like some kind of assault to me, but it matters more how you feel. Personally, in your situation I'd probably stay away from this guy until I had my own feelings sorted out, for two reasons; first, to keep from making accusations before you're sure how you feel about what happened, and second, to protect yourself from being influenced by him. Even if he was drunk too, he might know he did something that was dangerously close to crossing the line and be pretty eager to make you feel like nothing happened.

Anyway, it wasn't your fault. You were drunk, and vulnerable, and you said no. If you need not to see him for a while, that's a good idea. Even if you don't feel like you were raped, you could call a rape crisis hotline and they should be able to help you find a councellor to talk about what happened to you and what you want to do about it.

Yeah, now that you've told the whole story ... I don't know how exactly I'd define what happened, if it happend to me, but I know I'd be pretty pissed. What you do with those feelings is up to you.

I wouldn't label it as rape, because no intercourse of any kind happened, but that doesn't mean it can't feel degrading and bad, or that he shouldn't have done it after you told him to stop. Did you take your top off after you told him to stop? If so, it's easy to understand how he got a mixed message there.

I can't possibly fathom how you feel, but honestly, I'd talk to him about it and find out what he thinks in the aftermath of things.

True -- there's sexual assault and sexual harassment as legal categories, as well. (Which might be useful for people who want to define things for themselves, whether or not they seek legal recourse for what happened.)

For the OP: if you were both drunk, then there's definitely a lot of room for misunderstandings. It doesn't mean that you should put down your feelings, and you might well consider this a warning sign for future interactions with this guy. (I got drunk with a guy once, and took off my shirt, but when I said "no" to the pants, he said, "Okay." Sweet guy. I had such the crush on him. But anyway.) I would consider it a big deal if he heard your "no" and ignored it.

Assuming you're not going to just break off all contact with this person, I'd suggest that you talk to him in a way you feel comfortable (email, phone, face-to-face), when both of you are extremely sober (not just not drunk, but not exhausted from lack of sleep, and not starving and cranky). If you meet him face to face, personally I'd suggest that you talk in a semi-public area. Private enough that you can talk about it, but public enough to deter (hopefully!) some kind of scene.

Before you talk to him (if you do), I'd also suggest that you figure out what you want him to say, in your own mind. Do you want him to apologize? Do you want him to explain that he misunderstood how far you were happy going, and didn't hear you? Do you want to explain why you're never going to see him again? Do you just want him to understand that you felt really threatened and unhappy? It might be easier to see the signs of what you want if you know what that is, consciously -- or easier to see the signs that he's blowing off your concerns.

I hope that some of that's helpful. Good luck!

I do definitely agree this could easily fall into a sexual assault category, but I wouldn't go so far as to label it as rape.

I personally think there might have been a huge understanding on his end, and I think she should talk to him at some point when she's sorted things out if she's comfortable with the idea.

I don't think I'm qualified to say whether that's rape or not, because I wasn't there. I think it could be, but that's for you to decide. I don't think penetration is necessary for rape, for what it's worth.

I do, however, feel very strongly that it's not your fault. It doesn't matter how drunk or how much of a tease you were, you still have a right to say no and have that be respected.

And I'm very sorry this happened to you. {{{{{hugs}}}}}

I think, strictly legally speaking, that it's not rape without some form of penetration. That, however, does not mean she cannot feel that way though.

Legally speaking, it's sexual assault.

I don't feel the OP is asking for legal advice here, perhaps we could try to support her questions in ways that aren't providing legal definitions?

I feel that's what I was doing before I was corrected by the poster that I was responding to above.

In terms of legality, it's likely that it would be labeled sexual assault instead of rape. In terms of how the OP feels about things, however, that distinction may not be particularly relevant. And ultimately, since it looks like the OP may have come to VP more for support and less for legal advice, it might be better to concentrate on giving her the support she needs. :)

Bottom line, if you said no, you said no. Whether or not all the actions up to that point were consensual or not, anything beyond "no" qualify as sexual assault.

At the very least, the boy owes you an apology. If that's enough for you, then it is and it can drop.

Remember one thing, though. Unless you were pulling his naked form onto you, moving his hips for him against you, HE was in control of his body and therefore shares an equal amount of culpability in the actions that led up to the point where you said no, and he owns 100% of the respoinsibility for everything after it.

If you were giving him signals that it was okay to dry hump you, and that's not what you wanted, and you were too drunk to really say no, and mean it, and you couldn't move away, I just think you got yourself into a situation, and then were too inebriated to handle it. It could have been much worse.
If you were drunk and your friend took advantage of you, I'd say yes, or if he were drunk and you couldn't get him to stop, but what you post is just 2 drunken friends acting stupid, and taking it too far.

but I didn't. I said it was okay for him to massage my back.
I know its not "rape" but it was a bit of an asshole thing to do, ya know?

I agree that it's an asshole thing to do.

It seems like the term you're looking for is sexual assault, not rape.

Regardless of terminology used, I think the situation is an awful one, and your being upset and confused is completely totally valid. I wish you much healing and happiness.

It sure was, sweetie. But in guy speak, "Massage" generally means "foreplay". Talk to him about it, tell him you didn't appreciate it, and then keep your wits about you.
Best wishes.

I'm gonna have to disagree on that one. I've never had a guy, when I've asked for a massage, do anything other than touch my back -- even my boyfriend. If I ask for a massage that's what I get. Guys are perfectly capable of knowing the difference between a back massage and feeling somebody up, even when drunk. He may have thought the okay for a massage meant he could safely venture to other parts of her body, but that's not because "massage" universally means "foreplay" to guys. It sounds more like he was thinking that since he was already touching her in one way it was okay to do it another way without having to ask. But he should have asked.

I agree with you Loopylupinelover. Guys aren't all sex maniacs, and even those who are, they also have brains that understand language.

I'd also like to point out that if a person is "too drunk to say no" they are also far too drunk to say Yes. And that when you engage in sexual activity with someone, the ethical thing to do is to make sure they are saying "yes, I want to do this" before you procede.

I don't think that's really fair to the OP to say they were "just 2 drunken friends acting stupid, and taking it too far". She said NO and that she was uncomfortable and her friend didn't listen.

Hi,

purplevenus. I'm writing on behalf of the VP Team to express concern that the attitude and/or wording above do not foster what we consider Safe Space in this community, and may fall under the category of victim blaming. Specifically, we are concerned when you say here "I just think you got yourself into a situation, and then were too inebriated to handle it" and "then keep your wits about you" here that the OP bears some responsibility in what happened to her. However, she's told us that she said no and defined her sexual boundaries; she is not at fault for someone else's decision not to respect those boundaries.

Please consider this a warning as well as a friendly reminder to take this opportunity to review VP's policies. You can find more information on these in our FAQ, as linked here:

--What are VP's rules?
--What is "safe space"? What does "empowerment" mean?
--What is "victim blaming"?
--Things to consider before responding to posts about sexual assault in VP

You are more than welcome to make a post over in

contact_vp or to contact us via email if you'd like to talk more about this matter or clarify any points; we only ask that you avoid commenting further here out of respect for the OP. For that reason, replies to this thread will be frozen.

-Rebecca
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Now that you've posted the whole story...

I still say that no matter what signals you gave him, no still means no. Teasing banter, taking your top off, and letting him rub your back does not mean you no longer have a right to consent or not. You always have the right to say no. Even if you're both naked in bed together you have a right to say no. Even if you're married. Even if you just did a striptease. It's your body. No means no.

If he didn't hear you, then maybe he made a mistake. Mistakes happen when people are drunk. That doesn't change how you should feel about it. You have a right to feel however you feel about it. Just like you always have the right to say no.

well i am thinking that if this guy is your friend and you are planning to stay friends with him maybe you should just talk to him about it.

I would probably call it sexual assault if I was going to call it something. It's possible that on his end it was a mistake, he was drunk, he didn't hear you, whatever -- but even if he didn't mean to hurt you, you're still feeling angry and disgusted, and those feelings are completely valid. Some people like your girl friend might be okay with what happened, but you're not -- that doesn't make either of your feelings about the situation any less real.

If this is a friend of yours I would talk to him about it and explain that you ended up feeling upset and confused about it. Just because you took off your top doesn't mean he gets to try and put his hand down your pants, and just because you joked for him to prove his size doesn't mean you asked for him to try and rub himself all over you (he could've just shown you, for example). If you want to remain friends I would talk to him and explain that you felt disgusted, and, if you worry that this could happen again, that maybe in the future it would be a good idea for both of you to not get that drunk with each other because of things maybe going too far. This friend may not be a safe person to drink around/be around when he's drunk, especially since your friend said he's done that to her as well.

Good luck.

I think whether or not it's rape or sexual assault or whatever label you put on it, the fact that you FEEL uncomfortable means that SOMETHING happened. And the fact that you asked him to stop, but didn't, makes it certain IMO that something inappropriate did take place.

Honestly, if you were getting a massage it wasn't very likely that he didn't hear what you said. Usually when massages are taking place in a private environment, there isn't a lot of noise. You being drunk doesn't excuse what he did, NOTHING does. If anyone makes any more unsupportive comments, please ignore them.

My advice is to have an open and honest conversation with your girlfriend, telling her that DESPITE the fact that you were drunk and topless, this DOES NOT exclude inappropriate conduct. Tell her you feel uncomfortable that you were taken advantage of and that she didn't back you up in anyway.

If the guy is a friend, tell him that you felt what he did was inappropriate. If he's a good friend, he'll apologise and hopefully make a gesture to make it up for you. If he's angry or combative, it may just be that he is shocked. So if he does react that way, leave him a while to think things over, then contact him to talk it over again. I strongly believe that any issues like this need to be talked over if you are to work through them.

Try not to feel guilty. Try not to feel that because you had something to drink and were topless that it is somehow your fault. Yes, men are creatures of convenience and this might have caused him to act that way. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't apologise if he upset you. You could be wearing a top that says 'take advantage of me' and he still shouldn't. He should be capable of controlling himself as EVERYONE should be.

Yes, there are things a woman can do to prevent rape and sexual assault. But even if these things aren't done, that ISN'T an excuse and does not remove blame from the person who carried out the actions that distressed you. There is NEVER an excuse to carry out a sexual activity on someone who does not want it and expressly says so. Period.

My experiences with friends who were drunk, high, asleep, or otherwise not-sober have led me to the conclusion that the only men who cannot comprehend "No" (let alone "No" and trying to move away) are those who /already/ feel entitled to do whatever they want with my body. You might have the exception, but my very strong gut feeling on this is that the drunkenness is an excuse to try to pressure women into doing what they don't want to do.

The fact he seems to have made a habit of this means either:
a) he doesn't realise it's wrong to pressure drunk women into sex activities when they're saying "No" and trying to get away or;
b) that he doesn't care.

Either way, please, please don't trust this guy, whether you or he or both are drunk or sober. This guy is not really your friend.

Don't judge your girlfriend too harshly; she probably felt as confused and ashamed as you feel, and is dealing with it by deciding that it wasn't a big deal and if it was, it was her own fault. Talk to her, if you're close; if you admit what happened and how you feel about it, she might be able to deal with it better. Or maybe not. Be better than her, though; if you can, warn other women in your circle that he does this.

You are allowed to say "no" at any time, and should not feel the slightest bit guilty for doing so. People can change their minds, and they ought to be respected for it. The fact that he would not stop may be due to him: misunderstanding or just not caring/ignoring your feelings. Sometimes people can get carried away and they fuck things up by continuing when their partner has said no. You are not him, so don't blame yourself. He did that for whatever reason, and you exercised your right to say no. You are not in any way dirty or wrong or disgusting: he did not respect you as a person.

Your friend may not have done anything because she might not have interpreted the situation correctly. I agree that she should have stopped it, and I would be mad too. Maybe try expressing to her just how much it upset you; I think she needs to know. (Or maybe you did already and I've misread your post, in which case I'm sorry.)

Do you want to be friends with him anymore? To me, friendship is based on trust (as are relationships), so after that, I personally doubt I would continue to be friends with him. I think it's important to address things like this with the person directly, particularly if you want a solid friendship to continue. Maybe he honestly did not know how uncomfortable you were (i.e. if he was drunk, his judgment was impaired).

I'd like to add that if you were drunk, yes your judgment was impaired (it's what alcohol does), BUT that doesn't mean you did something wrong. People get drunk because it's fun (or whatever other reason), and sometimes things happen that wouldn't normally. Please don't think I am blaming you - that isn't my intention! I think you did everything well, and that you shouldn't beat yourself up over this.

Let me know if I need to clarify anything, or if you just want to talk more/explain something else. I think you're going to get through this just fine, and I'll keep some positive energy headed your way. Much love. *hugs*

I know you will hear it a million times, and it's a hard thing to believe, but: you did *nothing* to be ashamed of. No absolutely means no.

And (I shall be the raging bitch here) if you do decide it's best for you *not* to continue being friends with this guy - that's *absolutely* okay, and if you do decide to speak to him and attempt work it out, that' s absolutely okay as well.

And also? It takes a brass set just to speak up and try to work out these feelings, and good for you.

Sending much, much strength and good luck.

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